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AndrewRH
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Post subject: Re: Application for Car Park on Railway Hotel site  Posted: Thu Jun 24, 2010 1:05 pm |
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Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2009 12:17 am
Posts: 1232
Location: Whitchurch, Hampshire
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A letter just received from B&DBC, with express permission given to distribute to other local residents - see below. In summary: - B&DBC state that the temporary car park is an "unauthorised business" - however they are unable to take any enforcement action - they will talk with the developer to ask them to shut it - they will "actively monitor" the site on an ad hoc basis - blame planning legislation... - "until such time as the planning application is determined...the undertaking of further formal enforcement action would not be appropriate, proportionate nor expedient" - likely to consider application at a development management committee on Wednesday 28 July B&DBC Compliance and Enforcement in Planning Development Section wrote: Dear All Further to your recent emails/telephone messages left with colleagues this week, the purpose of this email is to provide you all with a brief update on the latest enforcement investigation and to provide you with my own contact details. Firstly, the enforcement team/council is fully aware that the car park on the former Railway Inn is once again open and being utilised by paying customers. Regrettably however, we are at this time unable to instigate any formal enforcement action (either temporary or more long term) towards securing the cessation of this unauthorised operation/business. I can however confirm that further contact will be made with the car park operator either today or tomorrow. This contact will however only comprise of a firm recommendation/encouragement that the car park use be ceased: until such time at the current planning application is determined. Furthermore, active monitoring of the site continues to be undertaken by officers (ad hoc) and should a specific element of the on-the-ground operation change then more immediate formal action may be possible. If things remain as they are today however then the position remains that enforcement action cannot be instigated. It is fully appreciated that this position will provide little comfort to you, as local residents, but the council can only enforce breaches of control within the remit afforded by planning legislation. Rather than seek to provide you with a full and detailed explanation of the reasons preventing action being taken in this email however, I would, in summary, advise that the ability to pursue enforcement action is intrinsically linked to the outcome of the current planning application, being considered by colleagues of the Development Control Team. Accordingly, until such time as the planning application is determined, either positively or negatively, the undertaking of further formal enforcement action would not be appropriate, proportionate nor expedient. Although not directly responsible for the progression of the planning application, I can advise you that following receipt of amendments to the original proposal, I understand the application will most likely be presented to the Development Management Committee: at the meeting of 28th July 2010. As already stated, I appreciate this brief update will provide you with little reassurance about the outcome of the latest planning application and thereafter what, if any, enforcement action(s) may be taken. Please be assured however, that all of your provided contact details have now been added to the latest enforcement case record and as and when we are in a position to provide an update you will be furnished accordingly. Furthermore, I would reiterate that the concerns being raised by local residents remain of importance to this department/the council. If any of you would like to discuss matters further (in terms of enforcement) then please do not hesitate to contact me (for information you may or may not already now that I am now monitoring this case in the unforeseen and unexpected extended absence of the original handling case officer, Emma Turner). If you would like to discuss any matters relating to the planning application however, I would direct you to contact the officer handling the application, Claire Cook (tel. 01256 845444 or email. Claire.cook@basingstoke.gov.uk). NB- should you wish to forward this email to additional local residents, or interested parties not already known to this department please do not hesitate to do so. Yours faithfully Stuart Crickett Compliance and Enforcement Planning Development Section Basingstoke and Deane Borough Council, Civic Offices, London Road, Basingstoke, Hants, RG21 4AH stuart.crickett@basingstoke.gov.uk<mailto:stuart.crickett@basingstoke.gov.uk> Direct Dial: 01256 845367
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I'm spartacus
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Post subject: Re: Application for Car Park on Railway Hotel site Posted: Sat Jun 26, 2010 1:14 pm |
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Joined: Sat Jun 05, 2010 10:03 am
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Keith Watts wrote: Phillippa and Cathy and Kathy came along to a Council Committee meeting to defend their local open spaces...... etc
Go thou and do likewise. How do you know that I don't? I'd like to know your exact position on these questions. Does the proposed northern station car park or it's approach road breach the AONB boundary? Does Whitchurch need a northern station car park? If so, why? If in your opinion Whitchurch does need a northern station car park then how large do you think it should be? How large a car park is currently planned? If built would any northern station car park result in a larger station? Who would be the intended users? How would traffic passing through the town be alleviated? Have any studies been done on who would be using a new northern station car park? eg how far would they be driving to get there and from which direction? Are there any future developments being discussed at council level about the above areas?
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Keith Watts
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Post subject: Re: Application for Car Park on Railway Hotel site Posted: Sat Jun 26, 2010 5:39 pm |
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Joined: Sat Apr 11, 2009 10:03 am
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I'm spartacus wrote: Keith Watts wrote: Phillippa and Cathy and Kathy came along to a Council Committee meeting to defend their local open spaces...... etc
Go thou and do likewise. How do you know that I don't? I didn't mean to aim that just at you personally but at all local people interested enough to express their views through the forums.I'm spartacus wrote: I'd like to know your exact position on these questions.
Does the proposed northern station car park or it's approach road breach the AONB boundary? Yes, if 'breach' is an appropriate word.I'm spartacus wrote: Does Whitchurch need a northern station car park? I believe so.I'm spartacus wrote: If so, why? Because there is an existing demand for parking near the station causing great inconvenience to local residents and because the future of any station depends partly on usage. I don't share Mike Stead's view that it is in the interests of Whitchurch rail passengers to discourage further use. I'm spartacus wrote: If in your opinion Whitchurch does need a northern station car park then how large do you think it should be? I don't know, that would have to be discussed between the Council (s) and the Rail Companies when a project was on the table.I'm spartacus wrote: How large a car park is currently planned? There is no such plan, just a site allocated in the Adopted Local Plan and an intention expressed by SWT three years ago to build one. I understand that the intention has now lapsed because of limits on the rail franchise so Network Rail would be in the frame.I'm spartacus wrote: If built would any northern station car park result in a larger station? Not so far as I know, I doubt it.I'm spartacus wrote: Who would be the intended users? Rail passengersI'm spartacus wrote: How would traffic passing through the town be alleviated? Evingar Road and Station Road would be relieved of railway traffic. For the rest of the town it would depend on the origin of the traffic. All the people who have written to me from the surrounding countryside urging support for the temporary car park would be able to avoid the town altogether.I'm spartacus wrote: Have any studies been done on who would be using a new northern station car park? eg how far would they be driving to get there and from which direction? Not by the Borough CouncilI'm spartacus wrote: Are there any future developments being discussed at council level about the above areas? I'm not sure what you mean by 'the above areas'. Any discussions that I am involved in are open to the public. I believe that there might be discussions between Officers and Network Rail.
KeithPS, I am glad to see that Eadgyth came home at last.
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Sleepy Soul
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Post subject: Re: Application for Car Park on Railway Hotel site Posted: Sun Jun 27, 2010 9:14 am |
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Joined: Thu May 28, 2009 5:04 pm
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So if a new northern car park was built:
The temporary one would be shut down?
The official car park would have the current access blocked and a new entry point by the A34?
The 40 free spaces at the top of Evingar Road will be empty?
Only that way will any traffic flow be reduced.
From evidence gathered so far with the temporary car park being open, people are still using the free local spaces first. A bigger car park is not going to change that, they will still use the free spaces first then the close by pay and display ones. This point seems to be quietly ignored even though proved in practice since the temporary car parks opening.
And as I said before, we are only 20 new cars away from being 'back to square one' with all close by free and pay and display spaces taken up. Nowhere to park (at least right next to the station) after 7am. Exactly the same situation as before but with more commuters from Newbury and more local people driving than walking 10-20 minutes from home. It has also been noted that the platform has got busier in the last week as well. Sorry, but who is winning from this?
Who are these local people who live in Whitchurch that need to drive to the station?
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I'm spartacus
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Post subject: Re: Application for Car Park on Railway Hotel site Posted: Sun Jun 27, 2010 9:59 am |
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Joined: Sat Jun 05, 2010 10:03 am
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Sleepy Soul wrote: So if a new northern car park was built:
The temporary one would be shut down?
The official car park would have the current access blocked and a new entry point by the A34?......Only that way will any traffic flow be reduced. ......more commuters from Newbury and more local people driving than walking 10-20 minutes from home. It has also been noted that the platform has got busier in the last week as well. Sorry, but who is winning from this?
Who are these local people who live in Whitchurch that need to drive to the station? I would hope that all the southern side station car parks would be closed but I very much doubt that. I would think that any developer, in this case Network Rail would be very keen to maximise their profit by having as many car park spaces as possible. It really doesn't matter about the overcrowding on trains, in fact the more people who can be packed in the higher profit per train they make. This gives them greater leverage on the planning authorities to grant an extension to the station. And so it goes on. What evidence do you have that these extra commuters are from Newbury or anywhere outside of Whitchurch? If the platforms are busier then it may be a seasonal blip, Wimbledon, etc. More study is needed. Not many local people will win in the long term by building a northern station car park. The winners, of course, are the rail companies and the owners of the land to the north which are, of course, a vast pension company. I know someone who does drive to the station even though IMO it would be quicker to walk!
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I'm spartacus
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Post subject: Re: Application for Car Park on Railway Hotel site Posted: Sun Jun 27, 2010 1:00 pm |
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Joined: Sat Jun 05, 2010 10:03 am
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I haven't quoted the relevant text here, readers can just look above. In your opinion: Does any new development within the AONB set a precedent for further development close by within the AONB? Do you foresee the station being threatened by closure by the rail companies or some other body if a new carpark is not built? If the northern station carpark was built do you believe that the current parking facilities would be closed? Are you aware that the car park shown on the current plan would hold approx 150 cars. This is about the same as is exists now. Why would any company pay for an expensive new carpark when it would not generate a significant new profit? If there is no immediate economic advantage to the carpark developer, do you foresee any new development north of the railway as an economic incentive to the carpark being built? Would you support any new development apart from the carpark in that area? If there is no definite plan for the size and shape for any new carpark would you agree that it leaves scope for development infrastructure to be constructed (spur roads, drainage, etc) at the same time? Would you support that idea in principle? If so, why? As you say, no traffic studies have been done by the BDBC so how can you know where the present railway traffic comes from and whether part of the town would be relieved of any future traffic flow in order to base any opinion on? Can we have sight or least the gist of any discussions between any BDBC official or consultant and Network Rail with reference to any development north of the railway? PS. Eadgyth?  A senior moment perhaps
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Mike Stead
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Post subject: Re: Application for Car Park on Railway Hotel site Posted: Sun Jun 27, 2010 9:54 pm |
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Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2009 7:25 pm
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Keith Watts wrote: I don't share Mike Stead's view that it is in the interests of Whitchurch rail passengers to discourage further use.
Naerly a quarter of a million people use the station each year: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whitchurch ... mpshire%29As opposed to Overton's half that number: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_railway_stationSo any concerns that Whitchurch would close because numbers weren't large enough doesn't make sense to me. I've heard it mentioned that Whitchurch might close if Network Rail wanted to open a new station to the west of Basingstoke. In that case the logical station to close would be Overton, closer to Basingstoke, with its poor parking and half the numbers of our station. Of course I don't think that ANY station should close. The gummint should be doing all it can to get people to use public transport. What I KNOW is that at 7:43 you are often fighting to get the last few seats from Whitchurch. Maybe with all the sackings to come in Whitehall there will be loads more seats freed up. The building of this carpark has been done purely to suit the profit motive of the investors. Major hint: it's a TEMPORARY carpark. It will be turned into dense apartments as soon as possible, forcing the new commuters back onto the streets along with the resident's extra cars (what - did you really expect them to provide adequate off-road parking when they could build and sell another flat?) Even a child can see that this is a dumb idea - encourage more traffic to solve a traffic problem. Their claims to be doing the town or immediate residents a favour are so full of holes they really are laughable. The expression 'lying through their teeth' has never been more applicable than to Mr Haig and Co. Mike
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Keith Watts
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Post subject: Re: Application for Car Park on Railway Hotel site Posted: Mon Jun 28, 2010 9:26 am |
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Joined: Sat Apr 11, 2009 10:03 am
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I'm spartacus wrote: In your opinion:
Does any new development within the AONB set a precedent for further development close by within the AONB?
No.
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I'm spartacus
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Post subject: Re: Application for Car Park on Railway Hotel site Posted: Mon Jun 28, 2010 10:44 am |
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Joined: Sat Jun 05, 2010 10:03 am
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Mike Stead wrote: I've heard it mentioned that Whitchurch might close if Network Rail wanted to open a new station to the west of Basingstoke. In that case the logical station to close would be Overton, closer to Basingstoke, with its poor parking and half the numbers of our station.
It will be turned into dense apartments as soon as possible, forcing the new commuters back onto the streets along with the resident's extra cars (what - did you really expect them to provide adequate off-road parking when they could build and sell another flat?)
I believe that there will be a new Andover station to serve the large new development at Picket Piece. AFAIK Any new house building must have off road parking.
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I'm spartacus
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Post subject: Re: Application for Car Park on Railway Hotel site Posted: Mon Jun 28, 2010 11:04 am |
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Joined: Sat Jun 05, 2010 10:03 am
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Keith Watts wrote: I'm spartacus wrote: In your opinion:
Does any new development within the AONB set a precedent for further development close by within the AONB?
No. I take it that's 'No' to all the questions. Interesting answer. So lets get this clear can we. You support the building of a new northern car park but at the same believe don't believe that the existing car park spaces would be closed. Am I correct? Doesn't this vastly increase the usage of the station (not in itself a bad thing) and encourage car travel without relieving the present traffic flow? Personally I think you are very wrong thinking that any development north of the station within the AONB would not set a precedent. I believe that any refusal to build next to that new carpark could & would be appealed against very successfully. This could be good for the our elected representatives (more people thus more power with BDBC) but not for the local people who I'm sure who be appalled at any such proposal but equally powerless to prevent it.
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Mike Stead
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Post subject: Re: Application for Car Park on Railway Hotel site Posted: Mon Jun 28, 2010 9:54 pm |
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Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2009 7:25 pm
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I'm spartacus wrote: AFAIK Any new house building must have off road parking. Not sure how the maths works, but every new build we've visited in the last 5 years has always been a mess of overflow double parking. Look at Bell Yard these days.
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AndrewRH
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Post subject: Re: Application for Car Park on Railway Hotel site Posted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 8:31 am |
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Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2009 12:17 am
Posts: 1232
Location: Whitchurch, Hampshire
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Mike Stead wrote: I'm spartacus wrote: AFAIK Any new house building must have off road parking. Not sure how the maths works, but every new build we've visited in the last 5 years has always been a mess of overflow double parking. Look at Bell Yard these days. I think you mean Bellevue car park next to the new Bell Mews estate which borders the private Bell Yard road from there down to the Bell pub. ~Andrew~
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John B
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Post subject: Re: Application for Car Park on Railway Hotel site Posted: Wed Jun 30, 2010 5:18 pm |
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Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2009 9:04 pm
Posts: 539
Location: Whitchurch, Hampshire
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Going back a step to the very poor protection given to community facilities under existing planning law, as has so clearly been shown by the demolition of the Railway Hotel and the creation of this car park, CAMRA has today issued this national Press Release: Nigel Adams MP to introduce Bill to give pubs greater planning protection Issued: Wednesday 30th June 2010 Status: For Immediate Use • Selby and Ainsty MP to use Protection of Local Services (Planning) Bill to give English councils the power to close loopholes in planning law.
• New Bill has potential to ‘empower local communities’ threatened with loss of a local pub. CAMRA, the Campaign for Real Ale has today strongly supported moves by the Conservative MP to bring forward a Bill to help protect valued community pubs and other local services. This is an issue that CAMRA has been campaigning on since early 2009, and was a central proposal of their Beer Drinkers and Pub Goers Charter which has the support of over 150 MPs in Parliament. Nigel Adams, new Conservative MP for Selby and Ainsty, has been selected by a ballot in Parliament to bring forward legislation on a subject of his choice. He had decided to use this opportunity to give local services such as pubs greater protection from demolition or change of use. His Protection of Local Services (Planning) Bill will give local councils in England the power to close loopholes in planning law which allow local services such as pubs, post offices, local shops and community centres to be demolished without the need to seek planning permission. It could also be used to protect pubs in particular which can be turned into cafes, restaurants or financial services offices without giving communities a say. Mr Adams said: ‘For too long, community buildings have been able to be demolished despite the wishes of local people. It is crucial that we stand up for them.’ Nigel’s decision to bring this Bill forward has been strongly supported by CAMRA, the Campaign for Real Ale. CAMRA said: ‘This Bill will empower local communities and offer a much-needed lifeline to community pubs and other local services. Pubs are in crisis, with 39 closing every single week. A third of these pubs are then demolished without giving local communities a chance to save them. Both councils and communities are powerless to act as valued and viable pubs are destroyed.’ END ________________________ Notes: Local Services are defined in accordance with the definition in the Sustainable Communities Act 2007. That is, including, but not restricted to: retail outlets, public houses, banks, health facilities, including hospitals and pharmacies, legal services, social housing, post offices, schools, public eating places, leisure facilities and open spaces. 4,700 pubs have closed since the start of 2008
2,000 local shops are closing each year
2,500 post offices have been lost since October 2007 CAMRA’s research shows that of the pubs that are permanently lost, 31% are demolished, 36% converted to shop, café, restaurant or financial services use, and 33% are converted to another use – mainly residential. ________________________
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AndrewRH
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Post subject: Re: Application for Car Park on Railway Hotel site Posted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 10:37 am |
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Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2009 12:17 am
Posts: 1232
Location: Whitchurch, Hampshire
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John B wrote: ...CAMRA has today issued this national Press Release:
Nigel Adams MP to introduce Bill to give pubs greater planning protection ONE That is excellent news, John...for the longer term (and hopefully in time to help the next Whitchurch pub facing closure and takeover). TWO Today, I see that the number of responses to the planning application has shot up to 19, with 14 opposed to it. If you haven't commented yet, you can do so here: http://tinyurl.com/BDB-72549-commentsTHREE Yesterday I contacted Trading Standards to find out what their take is on an ' unauthorised business' as the car park is referred to by B&DBC. They told me they generally go after businesses that break trading laws, ie. dealing with how a business runs itself; and admitted that they struggle when it comes to dealing with businesses that breach planning laws. They said the best route is through B&DBC and the enforcement team. I told them of our June 24 response that said B&DBC won't enforce closure and that's when they suggested I contact the local government ombudsman. This I have done today. If you want to fill in a form with them if you feel B&DBC have not handled your complaint properly, then fill in the Local Government Ombudsman - Complaint Form. I noted on their form that I first complained to B&DBC on this latest car park opening on Monday, June 7. ~Andrew~
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AndrewRH
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Post subject: Re: Application for Car Park on Railway Hotel site Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 10:04 pm |
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Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2009 12:17 am
Posts: 1232
Location: Whitchurch, Hampshire
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Surprise!
The developer has extended the time he can run his unauthorised car park by extending the application another 14 days from 12 July.
A letter from B&DBC today says the developer has amended the proposed species of tree - now they want them to be Corylus Columa (Turkish Hazel).
What's to stop the developer continuing these series of extensions?
Imagine every 13 days putting in a change to the species (or something else) and thus generating another 14 day consultation extension...
...until they withdraw the application and resubmit a new one, that is (says the cynic in me).
~Andrew~
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nick
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Post subject: Re: Application for Car Park on Railway Hotel site Posted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 7:44 am |
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Joined: Thu Apr 16, 2009 7:49 am
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Question: do the amendments reset the count on the number of objections?
Had to do I confirm my objection is still counted?
Nick.
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AndrewRH
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Post subject: Re: Application for Car Park on Railway Hotel site Posted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 8:56 am |
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Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2009 12:17 am
Posts: 1232
Location: Whitchurch, Hampshire
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nick wrote: Question: do the amendments reset the count on the number of objections? No. Only a withdrawl of the application and submission of a new one would require a resubmission of your comments (just like what happened a month or so ago...and may again given the growing number of objections and delaying tactics seens): The planning application BDB/72549 shows this as of just now: Responses Received: 40 In Favour: 11 Against: 28 Petitions: 0 Comments: 1 Officer Site Visit Date: 04/06/2010 Committee Site Visit Date: No date Committee Meeting Date: 28/07/2010 There are also a few more additions to their application... (Keith the link to "APPLICATION OFFICERS REPORTRE:HIGHWAYS - " is broken) 1. Letter from developers consultants about traffic analysis and visibilitya) "Evingar/Station Road is operating well below is operational capacity" -- thus, they say, it is wrong for the highways engineer to call Evingar/Station Rd "busy". They do state the highways agency found nearly 2000 daily vehicle movements, but instead a lower number on one particular day that their own survey recorded should be used -- I wonder if B&DBC will remember the objections for the apartment block that was proposed (and rejected) for the old Serindipity Sams site? b) "refer to drawing CS/043780/SK-002 which illiustrates the visiblity envelopes and sets out a case complaint..." -- I think that this is the drawing which shows their visibility line going straight through where parked cars would be -- what's in the water up Newbury way that gives those commuters X-ray vision?  Note they also say (my emphasis added), "It is considered that the retention of the existing access for the pub car park was also made sitable for the temporary car park". Did they just admit the fact that the site is still a pub!? ~Andrew~
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AndrewRH
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Post subject: Re: Application for Car Park on Railway Hotel site Posted: Fri Jul 16, 2010 1:15 pm |
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Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2009 12:17 am
Posts: 1232
Location: Whitchurch, Hampshire
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Today, their planning application* states "Unfortunately, the consultation period for this application is not open" and shows that it is "awaiting decision". However, the direct link to the comments page still appears to be working!? Also, it states that the planning committee will be doing a site visit next Friday the 23rd with a decision to be taken at their meeting on Wednesday 28th July (at council offices in Basingstoke). Responses Received: 44 (+4 in past 28 hours)In Favour: 13 (+2)Against: 30 (+2)Petitions: 0 Comments: 1 Officer Site Visit Date: 04/06/2010 Committee Site Visit Date: 23/07/2010Committee Meeting Date: 28/07/2010*Aside: I just noticed that this application is for "Retention of Development (Section 73A)" whereas their previous one was for "Full planning permission". ~Andrew~
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Keith Watts
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Post subject: Re: Application for Car Park on Railway Hotel site Posted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 11:55 am |
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Joined: Sat Apr 11, 2009 10:03 am
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AndrewRH wrote:
Committee Site Visit Date: 23/07/2010
Committee Meeting Date: 28/07/2010
A panel of Committee Members visited the Railway Hotel site this morning. The applicant was not represented. The Committee Meeting will start at 6.30 pm next Wednesday. Also on the agenda is a proposal for a permanent Tree Presevation Order on the yews at 5 Fairclose.
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AndrewRH
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Post subject: Re: Application for Car Park on Railway Hotel site Posted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 1:07 pm |
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Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2009 12:17 am
Posts: 1232
Location: Whitchurch, Hampshire
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Keith Watts wrote: ...on the agenda... Their agenda is HERE. Note that B&DB officers propose that the council approves the car park! (and the conversion of a woodland into a paintball centre, but I digress) The section of the officers report about BDB/72549 is attached. The report says no objections were raised by any of: - Whitchurch Town Council
- Highway authority (suggest conditions be attached to approval)
- Trees (suggest conditions be attached to approval)
- Transport strategy
- Policy
- Network Rail (did say it doesn't benefit the railway!)
In summary, the report says: Quote: Reasons for Approval:
1. The car park would not provide an over provision of car parking...
2. There is adequate alternative provision of public houses within the local area...
3. The development would not cause any harm to the visual amenity of the area...
4. The development would not have a detrimental impact on highways safety...
5. The proposed development would not result in an undue noise, disturbance or loss of privacy to neighbouring amenities...
So, just one mention of change of use from community use (pub) -- and that only to say there are plenty of other pubs nearby.~Andrew~
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Sleepy Soul
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Post subject: Re: Application for Car Park on Railway Hotel site Posted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 5:20 pm |
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Joined: Thu May 28, 2009 5:04 pm
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Well, I'm quite surprised that they're recommending it giving reasons that it will benefit non commuters who need to park. They've been given fair warning plus reasons that this is clearly not the case, even before the car park was opened, since being in operation, it has clearly shown that the volume of cars has increased. Only 10 more people to use the new car park and we are all back to square one, albeit with more cars and more commuters on the trains.
Now I understand if the applicant said "I want to build a car park to make money" in any defence, yet he didn't. He gave reasons which have been proven to be incorrect, that it would benefit those who find there is nowhere to park, because of overcrowding full spaces. The council recommendation seems to echo that stance which seems rather strange. Anybody with a pen and paper could easily work out how many cars are there compared to how many there were. A new 50 vehicle car park built to provide only ten spaces (till its full) is really poor maths, but good money.
I don't think anybody (who is paid for the job) has really looked into this deeply enough....well, they obviously haven't, have they?
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AndrewRH
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Post subject: Re: Application for Car Park on Railway Hotel site Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 3:55 pm |
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Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2009 12:17 am
Posts: 1232
Location: Whitchurch, Hampshire
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The application is to be decided this evening at B&DB council offices. Watch it live HERE. Reading their officer's report, I spotted this hilarity: Quote: the plans submitted do appear to correspond with the location of the pubs on site So, let's invite the developer and B&DB to Whitchurch for a drink and give them the developer's map so they can find an appropriate alternative pub  They also claim locals near to the site can go to other pubs within a 1 km. Have any B&DB members spared a thought for the people near the station having to walk down to the town centre then back up the steep hill to their house (somewhat tipsy). Or maybe, they expect them to drive to their 'local' now? The only other one at the same elevation not requiring a steep hike back home is the Prince Regent -- on completely the other side of town. Fingers crossed that B&BD listen to our 'big society' who overwhelmingly objected to this application. And apply the results of the experiment of letting the 'unauthorised car park' remain open to prove to themselves that all the points raised in letters of support have been shown to be false. ~Andrew~
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AndrewRH
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Post subject: Re: Application for Car Park on Railway Hotel site Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 7:45 pm |
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Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2009 12:17 am
Posts: 1232
Location: Whitchurch, Hampshire
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AndrewRH
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Post subject: Re: Application for Car Park on Railway Hotel site Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 7:55 pm |
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Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2009 12:17 am
Posts: 1232
Location: Whitchurch, Hampshire
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Developer was asked these questions by the council after his 4 minute speech...
Q: Change chain link fencing?
A: It is not necessary...don't want people to dump rubbish behind [solid one] or causing a security issue...it is a temporary car park application...we personally don't think it is necessary
Q: Turkish hazel tree appropriate?
A: It has been chosen...there is further dialog...changing it to a beech appropriate tree.
Speaking against was Mike Stead and Keith Watts.
Questions to Keith (there were no questions to Mike):
Q: It is charging?
A: The station car park is charging; and this one is, ...and it is not full.
Debate starts...(lasted about 3 mins only)
- was viable until Punch taverns got their hands on it
- there was nothing that could be done in policy to stop this
- cllr frankum - how temporary is temporary? alternative is what? unofficial travellers site?
- answer: it is temporary for 3 years (not 2 years as said in report)
- ...and that was that - motion to approve was raised and seconded, then approved.
~Andrew~
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AndrewRH
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Post subject: Re: Application for Car Park on Railway Hotel site Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 8:12 pm |
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Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2009 12:17 am
Posts: 1232
Location: Whitchurch, Hampshire
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The application was approved subject to conditions in committee report. Note that there was really no "debate" (applications prior to this one had debates lasting over 20 minutes!) and none of the policy points raised by Mike or Keith were discussed. No councillor even talked about the numerous comments raised! Seemed like a "stitch up" to me. BIG SOCIETY 0, DEVELOPERS 1 ~Andrew~ p.s. Article on town website is HERE.
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Mike Stead
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Post subject: Re: Application for Car Park on Railway Hotel site Posted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 8:40 pm |
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Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2009 7:25 pm
Posts: 325
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The Cllrs - with 2 notable exceptions - just Did_Not_Care.
Had they been in the pay of the developer I would have expected nothing more than the complete apathy toward well-reasoned objections raised by dozens of residents.
That's all I have to say.
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nick
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Post subject: Re: Application for Car Park on Railway Hotel site Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2010 6:52 am |
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| Strong swimmer |
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Joined: Thu Apr 16, 2009 7:49 am
Posts: 66
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Thanks for everyone's efforts on this one
All we can do is fight each battle as it comes up and do our best. The fact we other members of the community who were working to support the car park (as it is their right) made it more difficult for us in this case.
It is concerning though the planning application was approved despite strong local objections. This doesn't bold well for decisions regarding the SHLAA - we don't want Whitchurch to become another Thatcham or Woodley (i.e. large areas of housing, with minimal facilities, only accessible by car).
Nick.
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Sleepy Soul
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Post subject: Re: Application for Car Park on Railway Hotel site Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2010 5:09 pm |
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| Shark bait |
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Joined: Thu May 28, 2009 5:04 pm
Posts: 37
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Can't really say much more from my previous post really. I think i'm more annoyed that elected representatives of Whitchurch let this thing through with no fight (or discussion), for themselves or a couple of pro-car park drivers I don't really know. The Whitchurch majority didn't want it, go figure.
Well at least its the end of the North Whitchurch car park (or any other). Any debate or consultation on its plans would be pointless, this case has proved that they will not be listened to or taken seriously anyway. Any discussion about car parks will always come back to this one. Maybe in the long run, its a good thing.
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Mike Stead
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Post subject: Re: Application for Car Park on Railway Hotel site Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2010 5:28 pm |
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Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2009 7:25 pm
Posts: 325
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Sleepy Soul wrote: I think i'm more annoyed that elected representatives of Whitchurch let this thing through with no fight (or discussion) To be absolutely clear, our elected representative Cllr Keith Watts was there, did speak as an objector (he made a special trip to be there until 9pm), and made a bloody good case for not approving the application. All the more galling that his fellow B&DBC councillors who have absolutely nothing to do with Whitchurch then ignored him - and all the residents who objected. One of the two who did not support the application was the Cllr for Overton. He said they had exactly the same problem, and a pay carpark hadn't solved it.
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Sleepy Soul
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Post subject: Re: Application for Car Park on Railway Hotel site Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2010 6:12 pm |
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| Shark bait |
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Joined: Thu May 28, 2009 5:04 pm
Posts: 37
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Mike Stead wrote: Sleepy Soul wrote: I think i'm more annoyed that elected representatives of Whitchurch let this thing through with no fight (or discussion) To be absolutely clear, our elected representative Cllr Keith Watts was there, did speak as an objector (he made a special trip to be there until 9pm), and made a bloody good case for not approving the application. All the more galling that his fellow B&DBC councillors who have absolutely nothing to do with Whitchurch then ignored him - and all the residents who objected. One of the two who did not support the application was the Cllr for Overton. He said they had exactly the same problem, and a pay carpark hadn't solved it. Thanks for clearing that up, I had the impression that there was no discussion. I still get the impression that the many flaws in the pre-approval were not highlighted.
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Keith Watts
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Post subject: Re: Application for Car Park on Railway Hotel site Posted: Sat Jul 31, 2010 11:05 am |
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Joined: Sat Apr 11, 2009 10:03 am
Posts: 182
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Mike Stead wrote:
To be absolutely clear, our elected representative Cllr Keith Watts was there, did speak as an objector (he made a special trip to be there until 9pm), and made a bloody good case for not approving the application. Thanks, Mike. In fact, I was there until 9.30 because the Tree Preservation Order for the yews at 5 Fairclose had been shunted to the back of the Agenda. Mike Stead wrote: One of the two who did not support the application was the Cllr for Overton. He said they had exactly the same problem, and a pay carpark hadn't solved it. The other Councillor who voted against is from Tadley. Overton, Tadley & Whitchurch are regarded by Planning Officers as the second tier in a 'hierarchy of settlements' considered sustainable enough to take more development. This isn't a SHLAA issue, it is one for the 'site selection' phase that will follow as we debate the 'core strategy'. Following the policy changes being made by the new Government, there will be a further consultation in the autumn.
Last edited by Keith Watts on Sat Jul 31, 2010 11:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Keith Watts
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Post subject: Re: Application for Car Park on Railway Hotel site Posted: Sat Jul 31, 2010 11:53 am |
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Joined: Sat Apr 11, 2009 10:03 am
Posts: 182
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nick wrote: ... we don't want Whitchurch to become another Thatcham or Woodley (i.e. large areas of housing, with minimal facilities, only accessible by car). I can't allow this slur on Woodley to go unchallenged. When I left Woodley 19 years ago I was Chairman of a brand new Youth & Community Centre built with developers' contributions and staffed by (the late) Berkshire County Council with two full time professional Youth Workers and several fully-funded part time Youth Leaders. Where in Hampshire can you find that? Where else in England can you use an indoor heated swimming pool run by a Town Council? Where else can you find a Leisure Centre funded by the proceeds of a Town Council built pub*? Where else can you find a 21st century conference and banqueting centre funded by a Town Council and a local Carnival Committee (with just £10,000 added by the Borough Council for disabled access)? Keith (Volunteer, amateur and elderly eccentric)*my proudest achievement
Last edited by Keith Watts on Sun Aug 01, 2010 11:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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bob mortlock
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Post subject: Re: Application for Car Park on Railway Hotel site Posted: Sat Jul 31, 2010 12:11 pm |
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| Small Fry |
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Joined: Sun Jul 25, 2010 8:20 pm
Posts: 2
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Talking about slurs, Keith, what about "Did_Not_Care", "in the pay of developers" and "stitch up".
This level of response to anything that the 2 posters (also moderators) don't agree with is sadly well known here in Whitchurch (will they start another website to spread lies about the Councillors who suported the approval). But do your fellow councillors deserve this level of abuse - didn't they give up their time too?
Could it be that the arguments put forward were not valid - as the majority thought.
I agree with the Overton Councillor that 49 car parking spaces are not the answer but neither is waiting for the "northern car park", which probably will have a landing strip for any pigs that might fly in at the time the development is agreed!
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John B
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Post subject: Re: Application for Car Park on Railway Hotel site Posted: Sat Jul 31, 2010 1:52 pm |
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Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2009 9:04 pm
Posts: 539
Location: Whitchurch, Hampshire
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bob mortlock wrote: Talking about slurs....
Moderator's note:The previous posting includes an allegation that "abuse" has been aimed at Councillors who supported this planning application. Dear 'Bob' *Would you please consider amending your posting to comply with the friendly ethos of this Forum. The comments on the planning decision are personal ones made by the individual posters, but the ' criticism' made does not equate to " abuse". Please can you also try and keep to a discussion of the application rather than aiming at individuals. Below is an extract from the Welcome note that sets the ethos. With all best wishes, John B One of the Site Moderators *Meanwhile, it has also been noted that you have registered two accounts on this forum, which is also outside accepted practice. ************** Welcome to the forums of Whitchurch, Hampshire, UK!
If you find something that is of questionable taste or is abusive of others, then report the offending post to the moderators, who will then determine whether the post needs to be modified, or perhaps even deleted permanently.
If a person is repeatedly being called up (ie. many of their posts are abusive, and are deleted or heavily edited) then the moderators can decide to ban that person permanently from this site. Don't be that person.
As in all discussions, there is room for healthy, postive debate - this is encouraged! Be respectful and enjoy the diversity of opinion.**************
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Mike Stead
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Post subject: Re: Application for Car Park on Railway Hotel site Posted: Sat Jul 31, 2010 2:23 pm |
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Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2009 7:25 pm
Posts: 325
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bob mortlock wrote: Talking about slurs, Keith, what about "Did_Not_Care", "in the pay of developers" and "stitch up".
This level of response to anything that the 2 posters (also moderators) don't agree with is sadly well known here in Whitchurch (will they start another website to spread lies about the Councillors who suported the approval). But do your fellow councillors deserve this level of abuse - didn't they give up their time too?
Could it be that the arguments put forward were not valid - as the majority thought.
I agree with the Overton Councillor that 49 car parking spaces are not the answer but neither is waiting for the "northern car park", which probably will have a landing strip for any pigs that might fly in at the time the development is agreed! Bob, I take your concerns very seriously. Let me clarify: My comment was very clearly prefixed with " Had they been in the pay of the developer". Any reasonable person would see that I am not inferring that they were as such. There is no slur intended, rather the direct accusation that they did not care about this application or the views of objectors, and did not do it anywhere near the level of justice it deserved. 28 written objections by ratepayers (possibly a B&DBC/Whitchurch record?) - ignored completely. The concerns of their fellow Borough Councilor - ignored completely. They gave far more time and effort to just how high a porch roof should be on a very minor planning application that was not even visible to the public. Had there been even a suggestion of consideration or debate on the objections, I'd have been satisfied that the process had held some merit. The fact that the application was approved is a disappointment yes, but there are appeal avenues to be investigated. What concerns me much more is the callous disregard for their responsibilities to the community in favour of a wealthy developer with a track record of flagrantly abusing the planning process. It really makes my blood run cold to think that people like this will shortly decide whether Whitchurch has another 400 houses dumped on it over the next 5 years, and the conditions placed upon any developers. I'd welcome any response from one of the Cllrs who supported the application, to explain why they thought the 28 written submissions and that of myself and Cllr Watts did not warrant even a second's discussion, whilst the height of a porch did. Regardless of whether you are pro- or against the carpark, you should be deeply concerned at how the B&DBC planning committee operates. Had this been the future of the Parish Hall up for debate, I fear it would already have bulldozers rolling over it. p.s. the only websites I've ever started state the clear, unequivocal truth. You know that, so does everyone else, so 'I'm not going to debate further because - as Islam Yosuf put it, "You can't bargain with the truth". Regards Mike
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Keith Watts
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Post subject: Re: Application for Car Park on Railway Hotel site Posted: Sat Jul 31, 2010 4:08 pm |
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Joined: Sat Apr 11, 2009 10:03 am
Posts: 182
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Mike Stead wrote:
I'd welcome any response from one of the Cllrs who supported the application, to explain why they thought the 28 written submissions and that of myself and Cllr Watts did not warrant even a second's discussion, whilst the height of a porch did.
Mike On their behalf, I must say that the height of a porch is clearly a 'material planning consideration'. Many of the reasons stated by objectors were not. The Change of Use issue had been dealt with by the evidence (albeit badly documented) that there are other pubs 'in the vicinity'. Although I pressed the traffic issue, they had been advised by the Local Highway Authority that it was not a problem once the one way system stopped cars emerging onto Station Road. I leant heavily on the temporary nature of the application but they were not convinced. The good news is, since the change of use is temporary, the site reverts to being a pub in July 2013 unless another application is granted before then. The members of that Committee are typically fair minded and independent. This is only the second case that I have 'lost' in over three years. I expected to lose but hoped to win over a few more Councillors. I have written before, the villain in this case is Punch Taverns. The developer is doing what developers do, not very nicely in this case. Keith
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bob mortlock
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Post subject: Re: Application for Car Park on Railway Hotel site Posted: Sat Jul 31, 2010 4:46 pm |
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| Small Fry |
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Joined: Sun Jul 25, 2010 8:20 pm
Posts: 2
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So the jury, John, Andrew and Mike, have judged themselves innocent.
Did they consider the points raised or was it a stitch up?
Of course, the answer to the first, from them, would be yes and to the second, no.
So why make similar accusations against others?
The friendly ethos doesn't seem to extend to comments on the developer who is accused of many crimes including that of coming from a village 7 miles away and having the nerve to use Whitchurch Station
The reason I have created 2 accounts is that I couldn't log on to the first one and when I asked for a password reset the system said the account was not valid
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nick
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Post subject: Re: Application for Car Park on Railway Hotel site Posted: Sat Jul 31, 2010 10:15 pm |
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| Strong swimmer |
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Joined: Thu Apr 16, 2009 7:49 am
Posts: 66
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Hi Bob,
My personal concerns with the Railway Inn car park developers were two fold:
- That they indicated to one of our Borough Councillors that the site was for housing development. They made no mention of a car park at that point I understand.
- They opened the car park prior to planning permission being approved in the knowledge that would invalidate their patrons' car insurance while onsite.
As Keith says that a developer being a developer but I still didn't like it.
I agree personal insults shouldn't be made by anyone. So I hope you share my distate of the recent insult made against a well known member of the community in the thewhitchurchweb.org forums which has greatly angered me.
As I always say in these cases: what about a pint at the Bell? *:)
All the best,
Nick.
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John B
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Post subject: Re: Application for Car Park on Railway Hotel site Posted: Sun Aug 01, 2010 9:28 pm |
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Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2009 9:04 pm
Posts: 539
Location: Whitchurch, Hampshire
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bob mortlock wrote:
The reason I have created 2 accounts is that I couldn't log on to the first one...
Forum Moderators Message:The system records do not show that to be so. The multiple accounts registered will be deleted in 24 hours should no satisfactory response be made directly to the moderators on their queries and requests. I do hope we will hear from you. You have our contact details. Regards Whitchurch Forums.
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AndrewRH
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Post subject: Re: Application for Car Park on Railway Hotel site Posted: Fri Aug 13, 2010 12:31 am |
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Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2009 12:17 am
Posts: 1232
Location: Whitchurch, Hampshire
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A post-script. I asked the council this: Please tell me why the development committee spent just about 4 minutes “debating” the application which received numerous objections – none of which were queried or debated. I note that other applications in their meeting were debated by the committee for considerably longer, for example 20 to 30 minutes. The official answer is: B&DBC Manager wrote: The Committee is presented with a full officer report which provides a summary of the main issues, policy context and recommendation.
For this particular application members undertook a site viewing and heard directly at the committee meeting from a local resident regarding his concerns about the proposal as well as the Local Ward Councillor, Cllr Watts.
The length of the debate on any item can range considerably but Members of the Committee would have been able to raise questions or concerns of the local resident, ward member or officers if they felt that they needed further information.
In my view, the Committee was satisfied that they had sufficient information before them to decide to approve the planning application.
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Graham Burgess
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Post subject: Re: Application for Car Park on Railway Hotel site Posted: Fri Aug 13, 2010 7:45 am |
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| Salmo trutta |
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Joined: Sat Apr 11, 2009 9:08 am
Posts: 114
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My last to Claire Cook in Planning.
numbers refer to points in her last letter.
Claire Cook
Planning
BDBC.
Council Offices,
Civic Offices,
London Road,
Basingstoke.
10th August 2010.
BDB/72549.
Dear Claire,
RAILWAY INN.
Lots of words but :-
1. The car park will satisfy some parking need but not in the best way. Inadequate
strategic planning has led to no progress on the alternative site muted over the other side of the railway station in a location that would not erode local amenity and property values.
2. The development has already serious eroded the visual amenity and I despair at the levels of ignorance and poor aesthetic sensibility that has been applied. All property values in that area are now seriously eroded.
8. I would hope that rather than the developer getting away with hiding behind the Latin Names of plants and low grade specifications they would be encouraged to plant high quality, heavy duty trees such as we are installing in our best business parks and commercial enterprises.
By this I do not mean the sort of trees amateur gardeners put in their gardens, I mean at least semi mature trees planted into special tree pits capable of being irrigated.The best way to ensure that developers take care to do the right thing is to make sure their initial investment is substantial.
I am confident that you will not get anywhere near replacing the valuable landscape ripped out un-necessarily. Persons visiting Whitchurch businesses will have a lower perceived value of our town.
Graham Burgess.
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AndrewRH
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Post subject: Re: Application for Car Park on Railway Hotel site Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 8:25 am |
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Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2009 12:17 am
Posts: 1232
Location: Whitchurch, Hampshire
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A postscript.... The signs at the new temporary car park indicate that wheel clamping will take place. The BBC are reporting that the government is about to announce the end of wheel clamping on private property - see article HERE. You can/will still get a ticket...so there's no free ride. But at least you'll be able to get home! ~Andrew~
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Sleepy Soul
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Post subject: Re: Application for Car Park on Railway Hotel site Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 5:05 pm |
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| Shark bait |
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Joined: Thu May 28, 2009 5:04 pm
Posts: 37
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I gather that from early next year, clamping on private property will be illegal. Till then, the car park can still charge £465 for release if the car has been towed away.
Now what happens next will be interesting. It would be hard to stop people who decide not to pay for a ticket or overstay. You can't clamp them, and i'm sure you can't force them with a FPN. So what next? Barriers? More expense and probably another planning application!
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John B
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Post subject: Re: Application for Car Park on Railway Hotel site Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 5:16 pm |
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Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2009 9:04 pm
Posts: 539
Location: Whitchurch, Hampshire
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Sleepy Soul wrote: Now what happens next will be interesting.
Perhaps the money-grabbing clamping extortionists car park operators will find that their efforts are best served by using the site for other means? Quote: So what next? Barriers? More expense and probably another planning application! No need for any application. They could simply return it to being a community pub 
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Graham Burgess
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Post subject: Re: Application for Car Park on Railway Hotel site Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 5:23 pm |
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| Salmo trutta |
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Joined: Sat Apr 11, 2009 9:08 am
Posts: 114
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Code: Whats a car park worth ?
STATION ROAD CAR PARK
update17 august 2010.
Number of parkings de risked
spaces price per day days per week per month per 6 months per yr per 3yrs
49 2.50 6 1176 7056 1411
2,940.00 £17,640.00 £35,280.00 £105,840.00[code][/code]
Last edited by Graham Burgess on Wed Aug 18, 2010 3:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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AndrewRH
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Post subject: Re: Application for Car Park on Railway Hotel site Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 8:52 am |
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Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2009 12:17 am
Posts: 1232
Location: Whitchurch, Hampshire
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Graham Burgess wrote: Whats a car park worth ? Aside - Graham, I suggest you edit your message and put the 'Code' wrapper around the table* -- that will force it to show each character in same width, so that the columns in your table line up, and make it more readable. ~Andrew~ *Highlighted the text in the editor then press the 'Code' button above the edit window, then use the 'Preview' button below the edit window to test out how it looks - adjust, repeat until satisfied.
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